Links:

'Reclaim Time to Read' 2022 reading challenge:  https://www.helenbeedham.com/2022-reading-challenge

Helen's business book: The Future of Time: how 're-working' time can help you boost productivity, diversity and wellbeing

Win a free signed copy of The Future of Time

No Filter: the inside story of Instagram by Sarah Frier

The Dinner by Herman Koch

SunHee on Linked In: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sun-hee-park/

East Asian Lawyers Organisation: https://www.eastasianlawyers.org/

Transcript:

Helen: Hi! This week, I'm talking to SunHee Park. SunHee is a lawyer working in the international capital markets. She has worked for a law firm, an investment bank and a development bank and outside of her day job, she is the founder of the East Asian Lawyers Organization, which supports East Asians working in the legal sector. And she's also a trustee on the board of CSIS a public sector charity. SunHee studied at Cambridge University, Ewha University in Seoul and Sophia University in Tokyo, and she speaks not one but four languages, English, Arabic, Korean, and Mandarin. Welcome to The Business of Being Brilliant SunHee!

SunHee: Thank you very much for having me, Helen. It's a pleasure to be here.

Helen: Great. So first question is did you learn all four languages as a young child, or are they language skills you've gained during your career?

SunHee: Well, that's an easy one because my dad was a diplomat. So that should explain a lot of things in terms of my background. So I've moved around. I've lived all around the world and t his is how I managed to meet so many people from diverse backgrounds from a very young age and come across different cultures, different languages. And I discovered that I actually like languages. Not that I had a choice when it came to Mandarin or Arabic, because despite the fact that for Arabic, despite the fact that I was in an American school the government of Kuwait mandated that everyone had to learn Arabic and so that's when I started. And then for Mandarin it's because I managed to live in Taiwan, Hong Kong and Beijing. So those are the places where I picked up and practised my Mandarin. So it's been really exciting.

Helen: Yeah, that's fantastic. I share the love of languages, but I've only managed three, including English, not four, and they're very rusty. So I'm impressed that you've used them and kept them up so well. And to let our listeners know a little bit more about you, what three words would you choose to describe yourself?

SunHee: Number one: omnivore; number two: resilient; and number three tolerant. So I'll start with the last one. Tolerance I think comes from, like I said, having lived around the world, coming across all kinds of cultures, religions, different people that has allowed me to have a mindset which is very accepting of everyone that I've come across.

Related to that is the first one, omnivore, in terms of the kind of knowledge that I seek. I don't think there are specific areas, I'm interested in learning about everything. So it's a great strain on my time, but on the other hand, it's something that I still enjoy doing. And this is one of the things that I find really curious when I interview people for a job. And I say, what are some of your strengths and weaknesses? And when people say the very banded- about term 'I have a growth mindset' a lot of people can't seem to explain what that is. They like to think that they have a growth mindset, but they can't really explain how it is that they show that.

So, for me, I definitely still read a lot and during the pandemic, during the lockdown, I've put up my reading volume about tenfold, I think just because you can't really go anywhere. And so I've enjoyed reading a lot more than I've been doing other things.

So if I'm on the move, if I'm commuting, then I would listen to a lot of podcasts for example, but because commuting time has been completely cut down to zero, then I've been reading more. And then the second element: resilience. Well, that comes again, from my background of moving schools every six months to every three years on average. And just being pulled from one place to another; pulled out of school in the middle of the school year, put into a different school in the middle of a school year. And that's really built up my ability to adapt.

Helen: That's wonderful, listening to that and great that there's been a small silver lining through the last 12, 18 months of you enjoying reading so much more and more widely. That's wonderful. And thinking about your work life and your career to date; obviously for many of us, our work lives have looked quite different for the last 12, 18 months because of the pandemic, but thinking back longer term, when would you say you have flourished most in your career and was there something or someone in particular that made that happen?

SunHee: There were many times when I've been in fortunate places where I've done very, very well. But when I look back on those circumstances, it's because of the right combination of people at the right time. And why I've also discovered that that is something that you don't really have control over as such, because if you're new in an organization, you are dependent on people who are already there. I mean, I'm sure you have a little bit more control if you're in a position to hire people into your team, that's a little bit different, but on the whole, a lot of people have to make do with those who are already in the teams that they're placed into. So it's a matter of luck, really whether you have the right combination of people who are open-minded enough to get on with everybody else in the team. But if you happen to have one rotten apple, I discovered that that is very damaging. And it really surprised me at the speed at which the cohesiveness of a team can be damaged by one person in a team, even if that team had jelled well together before. So it's been interesting.

Helen: It's so true how you can have a comfortable dynamic or a familiar dynamic as a team and it just takes one change for that to really make itself felt positively or otherwise in lots of different ways. And you almost have to restart that whole subtle negotiating understanding, getting to know each other ... The whole team development process almost goes back and starts from scratch again.

And has there ever been a particular piece of advice that someone has given you that's helped you in your career or in life generally to make the most of opportunities or to go out and achieve the things you're hoping to achieve?

SunHee: In terms of specific career advice, nothing comes to mind only because I think this has to do with the general consensus that I think that there is amongst people of colour who've tried to work in the City or elsewhere that there are fewer opportunities for sponsorship and for mentorship, for people of colour. And I've discovered that over nearly 25 years of working in the City that is true, not just to me personally, but also across the board when I look at my friends and colleagues. And so nothing in particular, when it comes to specific legal advice that I've received for my legal career, but a lot of things that I've learned and implemented throughout my life are things that I learned when I was doing a sales job.

So, as you may know Cambridge has very long summer holidays and Margaret Thatcher made it impossible for foreign students to work in this country. So even if you want a temporary bar job or pub job, you can't get it because you have to be able to prove that you can do something that nobody else in the country can do.  And that's a pretty high bar if you want to work as a serving capacity in a restaurant or a pub, so that was impossible, but there was an arrangement with the United States - and I don't know whether it still exists - but if you were a full-time student in the UK, you could go over to the US and have a summer job. I picked the sales job, because that looked the most interesting because you were completely dependent on your commission. You didn't get any fixed income whatsoever. And I thought, well, okay, sure it's risky, but it's worth a try. They sent you to a week of sales school and a lot of things that I picked up are things that I learned from that sales school. So things like, jump out of bed, look at yourself in the mirror and then say to yourself 'you good looking thing, don't you ever die!' And wink. And the hilarity of that just makes you laugh out loud and that is such a good way to set up for the day, right? To have an opportunity like that, to laugh at yourself, to laugh at the whole situation, you know? So that's one of the things.

Helen: That's wonderful.

SunHee: And another thing that's really kept me going is a t-shirt that I won for one particular week where I did great sales and I still have the t-shirt and it says 'the race is not always to the swift, but to the one who keeps on running'. Who is there to judge what the race is, how long the race is? It's you, it's all up to you.

Helen: What wonderful anecdotes. I love the one of getting up in the morning and saying that to yourself. That's puts a smile on my face just thinking about it. In fact I might try it. We're recording this just before Christmas at the moment, so if the Christmas festivities and the planning gets too much, I might take a leaf out of your book and ease myself through to the New Year that way. That's wonderful and it's amazing, isn't it, how much even experiences very early in our career can take root and help shape our approach and our mindset later on. Something you said earlier about the luck that falls into your lap when you join a new organization, in terms of the colleagues you have and the team spirit you have, that really struck a chord with me. I was very fortunate to land into a wonderful consulting organization with a fantastic set of colleagues and mentors who just helped me so much in my career there and later. But I'm struck by what you're also saying about some of the barriers you've experienced to getting on and flourishing in your career. it sounds like in part that has prompted you to set up and found the East Asian Lawyers Organization to help other people who might be struggling without mentors or getting time with senior people to help them progress. Is that right?

SunHee: Yes, indeed. Because again, we're very prone to sweeping everybody into the same bucket. So now one of the hot topics of conversation is whether to even use the term BAME at all, right, because we're not a uniform entity of BAME and non-being right? Within BAME there's all sorts, just like within non-BAME there are all kinds of people from different backgrounds too. So my fundamental philosophy has always been treat people like a person, rather than with sweeping generalizations, with stereotypes and preconceptions as to how they should be and how they should behave.

And so these are the kinds of things which are really difficult to deal with because you won't come across that many cases in your career. Maybe on the street, that's a different matter, right? But in your career, you will not come across that many people who are racist or sexist to your face. So a lot of decisions are taking place behind closed doors, and you don't know what's being said when it comes to promotions, bonuses or even hiring or firing decisions, right? These conversations you are not privy to, so you cannot point that out and say, 'oh, they're being racist or sexist or homophobic' or whatever it is, right? It's very difficult to say and challenge that. So this is why it's taken a long time for me to realize that all these problems that we face I'm talking about now have been endemic, because otherwise, how else can you explain the lack of people of colour in senior roles in British society? And I'm not just talking about the legal sector, but if we look more broadly at finance or academia or anywhere there's very, very few; and in particular, when it comes to East Asians.

So again, East Asian is a term that is not widely used so far, I don't think. But it's this term that I'm trying to popularize, just because when I first came to the country, I was surprised to find that the term Asian doesn't always refer to pan-Asian. It is in particular relating to south Asians, people from the Indian subcontinent. And so I don't know why it's not used more widely, but in contrast to south Asians, there are other Asians as well. And this is why I'm starting to use the term East Asian. Technically it is supposed to be East and Southeast Asians, right? Because again Asia is a very big place. But East and Southeast Asian is a little bit too much of a mouthful, which is why I've truncated that to East Asian. And again, there's controversy there as well, whether that's appropriate, but at least if you don't have a label, if you don't have a term, then you're not in the conversation at all. And that's what I'm trying to foster to try to get East Asians and Southeast Asians into the conversation. So the thing that struck me most about setting up EALO, East Asian Lawyers Organisation, is that a lot of people, a lot of kids have said to me, the younger lawyers have said to me, when we look up our organization, there are hardly any role models that they can look up to.

And that was the case for me as well in my career. So when I first started off in a magic circle law firm I didn't think that there was a diversity issue because my intake was pretty diverse. But what I failed to do was to actually look up at the partnership level because there weren't many people of colour at all, and certainly no East Asians. Not in London anyway. So very difficult to identify with somebody and say, ah, that's somebody that I want to aspire to be like, which maybe put on a lot of mental strain on people without actually a lot of people realising that.

Helen: Yeah. That's absolutely fascinating to hear. And particularly what you were saying at the beginning about people leaping to stereotypes and not taking the time to ask and appreciate and understand individuals' identity and background and preferences. And this is something I write about in The Future of Time, about how our time in the workplace is so task-focused that what's being lost is time to recognize individuals, to value individuals, and all those inclusive behaviours that drive better experiences for people in the workplace like enquiry, empathy, listening, actually putting assumptions and mental models on hold and remaining curious and taking time to explore that curiosity.I think that's all part of what you've described in this conversation already as having a real love of learning and a growth mindset. It doesn't just apply to the task, but it applies to the people we interact with. What is it about this person and their experiences that might be very different to mine? What can I learn by asking them about it? So it's really interesting to hear your perspective on that.

And talking about our time culture, this is something I describe in the book that how our time culture in our world of work is quite broken because we're just focused on cramming more into our work days. Everything is urgent. We have little time for downtime and for our health and for nurturing social bonds and and valuing individuals. And I describe a set of norms that we typically see at work. And if I were to describe what a time culture is for somebody, for whom that might be a new phrase, it's about our collective attitudes and values and behaviours about how we spend our time at work and how we value it. And I just wonder what time cultures you've experienced when you're working? What have you noticed about what we do with our time, how we value it and how we spend it in the workplace?

SunHee: Over the two and a half decades in the City I think this has changed a lot from when I first started work. So when I started as a junior lawyer, the expectation was that you would be hanging around at the office until midnight. If you left the office before 11, 12 o'clock at night, that was a good day. And that's because you were tethered to a landline. You actually had to sit at a fax machine to send out to a distribution list all the things that you had to send out, and then it evolved to actually having a print room doing that for you. And then you receiving these faxes by email instead, and then you being able to actually do the editing yourself rather than actually going to the printers, maybe. On the other hand, things have gotten worse because of technological advances that we've gone through as well. So everything is accessible so easily and so quickly, which is why your clients expect you to respond as soon as they send an email or a message by any other means, immediately just because they're online. But I think there has been a definite attitude shift even before COVID in terms of not bothering people outside of the core working hours, but still ... I think it depends on the people that you have, who are sending you these requests. And even though they may not look at your response immediately, they do expect you to respond immediately. And that has always been my experience. And I think that has gotten worse during the pandemic, because everyone knows that you're stuck at home. So why are you not responding?

Helen: Yes.

SunHee: So I think because of the huge emphasis on trying to take care of your mental health, this has again come to the fore in terms of not expecting people to be on call all the time. But for me personally, I think going to the office has been healthier just because I made sure that I went to the gym at least three times a week for a pilates or a yoga course or cardio class, whereas during the lockdown, I basically done nothing. I thought I might actually do a little bit more yoga or pilates. That really hasn't happened for me just because I had this thing of, just one more email, just one more message. I'll just respond to this and I'll do it. And I just never got around to actually taking care of myself. So I think my mental health in some ways improved because I was doing other things like doing more reading, but on the other hand, my physical health declined just because I was at my desk a lot more then I would have done if I'd been in the office.

Helen: Yes, so much more sedentary. Even just getting up and getting to the station or walking from the station to your office. It's incredible how many more steps in a day you take when you are going to a place of work versus working from home? It's so true and I know so many people have experienced similar pressures around ' well, you're working from home, so we know you're available. Can't you answer this demand or request now?' And it's been a real challenge, not just for us as individuals, but I think for organizations to shape new and healthy habits about how we spend our working time. Consciously or unconsciously, and this is something I say in the book, I think employers have been letting employees take on this burden of time buffering, which is letting our boundaries, our time boundaries, keep extending to keep up with the volume of work. I definitely think there's a role that organizations and employers can do to proactively and more energetically, encourage certain ways of working that put healthier boundaries around things to let people pick up their physical exercise again, and to switch off mentally and to spend time recharging in whatever way works for them.

What do you hear other people say that they're concerned about or want to change in our world of work today?

SunHee: Well in our world of work, I think we're in a huge time of shifting our values and our ways just because we have more capacity to choose. And in a lot of ways, it's great that we have the choice for some people to work from home or to go into the office. But in other ways, that's thrown in more complexities in terms of keeping a team cohesive, for example. And so, there is no one size fits all anymore. And for an organization to figure out what works best for them is going to be very tough challenge

Helen: I think it's going to place quite a big responsibility on managers to be asking those questions much more often to be understanding their individual team members, situations and ambitions and concerns, much more to be having more of those conversations than perhaps they were before, because otherwise how can one management team know what's going to work for everybody in their workforce? And I think it's part of the shifting role of managers, from being work supervisors and project managers to acting much more as coaches and people managers, understanding what's helping people in their career today and to do their job well, and what's getting in the way of that.

And coming back to you personally and your time, how do you organize your time at work? Are there certain time habits that work for you or where do things fall over if they fall over? And what tip might you share with people listening? Because we were just saying before we came on air, how you have worked full time for the duration of your career to date and had a family and that inevitably means you have had some wrestling and juggling of time along the way. So just to add that little bit of background in about you before you answer.

SunHee: So it's been a journey depending on the other things that were going on in my life, obviously. I had very little flexibility when my kids were young. My arrangement has always been that I would be able to work late one day a week, but for four days I was the primary caregiver for my children who took over from the nanny.

So that lasted for quite a few years. And now that my kids - one's out the door, the other one's almost out the door - Yeah, that is no longer an issue. But when I used to go into the office, work life balance was a little bit better like I said. Sure, my work day revolved around what time zones I was dealing with but aside from that, I made sure that I could fit in two or three sessions of going to the gym, whereas that completely during lockdown working from home. It's going to take a conscious effort because I think like a lot of people, I thought all of this will be over by the year end this year. Because of Omicron, this seems to be going on and on, and who knows what other variants there are going to be? And what other measures are going to be taken? In the absence of the pandemic dying down completely and us being able to resume our lives, I think each of us, as individuals, have to take responsibility for our own health, mental and physical, and decide for ourselves what works best for me. I was in a temporary mode thinking that, when we shut down in March of last year in 2020, nobody had any idea that it was going to go on for this long, that we'd be working from home for that long. And so I just didn't plan in terms of this is how my life should look like. This is what my day should look like. I found myself working, turning on my computer on around nine o'clock and then switching off at around 10 o'clock at night. So there's very little time to fit anything else in between. So I think you have to make a conscious effort to make sure that you are ok; to live your life and have your day the way that you have it. And it does take effort.

Helen: That's such a great point SunHee about how easy it is for us to just fall into habits around how we spend our time between the moment we wake up and the moment we go to bed and we don't always think that often about is that really the best way or the way I want to be spending my time? And I think we all hoped the pandemic would be over a lot quicker than obviously it has been. So it's interesting to hear you say that as it's gone on, it has prompted you to be much more thoughtful and intentional about how you're going to spend your time each day. That's something definitely I have come to do in recent months as well, prioritizing time for a short run. For me, I do that every day in the morning, it gets me up and fresh air and functioning. But also 10 minutes reading here and there in the middle of the day reading breaks, or do 10 minutes, 15 minutes of journaling about anything and everything, an idea at work I'm working on or a reflection about the day I've had. And those things, they're different for each of us, aren't they? But it's really important we know what are those things that give us mental rest and breathing space and recharges cognitively as well, because it is so important. It's great to hear how you manage that.

Looking further ahead, if we were to press fast forward a few years from now, what future ambition, as yet unfilled, would you like to say you've achieved?

SunHee: So when I look back to my career to date, I think a lot of things have been around my personal sense of what I can do, what kind of deals that I want to do, practical things. Whereas now that I've become older, I'm more conscious of making a difference, making an impact on spring chickens. And so again, it goes back to, in some ways, the role that I have with East Asian Lawyers Organisation, but also taking an interest in being more proactive with the junior members of my profession that I come across or just young people in general. So before the lockdown, I used to go into schools and talk about the legal profession to 13, 14, 15 year olds. And so that's the kind of stuff that I took a lot of pleasure in doing. And I think I do want to be more conscious and more intentional about making an impact on people's lives.

Helen: That's wonderful. And I'm sure you you'll achieve a great deal in that space. You're doing so much already to help others in their careers. And so onto the last two questions that I ask everybody on the podcast, the first one is: what resource, whether that's a book or video or podcast or film, would you recommend to others? And why?

SunHee: I'm definitely old school and I'd say, if you haven't read a book recently, go and pick out any book. I'm one of these people who still use my local library.

Helen: Yep. Me too. Love it.

SunHee: And so a lot of the times I will now wander around and just pick up anything from any section of the library, rather than just limiting myself to just one particular author, one particular topic. I read as widely as possible. So I'm not going to pigeonhole anyone into saying, into thinking that they need to read a particular person or a particular book, but just experiment. You never know what you might discover if you open your mind and go out there and are happy to receive.

Helen: I love that suggestion , an invitation to go to your library, go to a section that you never stop at and you perhaps always walk past and just pick a book at random and see what you make of it. That's a lovely suggestion, a great way of opening our eyes to things outside our normal habits. And finally, how can listeners connect with you after the podcast if they'd like to find out more about the work you do or get in touch professionally?

SunHee: So I do have a LinkedIn profile. Otherwise look up the East Asian Lawyers Organisation and that's www.eastasianlawyers.org. There is a contact email there.

Helen: Wonderful. Thank you. And thank you so much for talking with me today. You've been a brilliant guest and I've really enjoyed hearing your different reflections and perspectives and lots of wisdom that you've been sharing with me and with listeners today. Thank you so much for being part of The Business of Being Brilliant. It's been great talking with you.

SunHee: Thanks Helen