Links:

'Reclaim Time to Read' 2022 reading challenge:  https://www.helenbeedham.com/2022-reading-challenge

Helen's business book: The Future of Time: how 're-working' time can help you boost productivity, diversity and wellbeing

Ama on Linked In: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ama-ocansey-52419614/

Brenee Brown's podcast: https://brenebrown.com/podcasts/

Atomic Habits by James Clear

The Power of Habit by Charles Duhigg

Transcript:

Helen: This week I'm delighted to be talking with Ama Ocansey, who is UK Head of Diversity and Inclusion for BNP Paribas, which is a worldwide investment and retail bank. It's present in 74 countries and has over 190,000 employees globally. Ama is a qualified solicitor and began her career at the international law firm Linklaters, practicing in both London and Tokyo. After joining BNP Paribas, she became a senior capital markets lawyer for their corporate and institutional banking business focusing on cross-border capital markets transactions in the emerging markets. Ama has been shortlisted for various industry awards and was named Brummell Inspirational Woman. She's involved in developing access to finance for individuals and entrepreneurs in developing economies and as a Non-Executive Director for the Financial Inclusion Forum and BNP Prime Brokerage International Ltd, she also mentors junior city lawyers and students. Welcome to The Business of Being Brilliant Ama!

Ama: Thank you Helen. Very excited to be here. This is my first ever podcast so I'm hoping it all goes well.

Helen: Well, we're delighted that you're starting your podcasting life with us. Thank you so much. It's lovely that you're joining us for that. So, really interesting to hear about your career and how it's evolved. Could you start by telling us something about yourself that might surprise people to give people a feel for who you are?

Ama: I have been an asylum seeker as a child and to cut a long story extremely short, my dad was a diplomat who got posted to the UK with his family; we're from Ghana, West Africa. And during the time of his posting, there was a military coup and it meant that my dad couldn't go back because essentially his colleagues and the current government were forced out and a lot of them executed. And so we ended up being stranded in the UK and we had to seek asylum. And so it's very interesting to me when I hear discussions and debates about asylum seekers, because often there's a lack of empathy or sympathy, and people always assume that everyone's dying to be here or they come here under illegal means, and that's not often the case. And I missed home terribly when it became obvious that we couldn't go back. So my advice always is that do have compassion because for somebody to leave their home, it takes a lot. And the idea that they may not be able to go back, it is really quite difficult.

Helen: Thank you for sharing that and I think it's particularly moving to hear your story at a time when we're just so painfully aware of the number of Ukrainians fleeing their country and wondering where they're going and what the future's going to hold. And when they'll ever go back to their home and perhaps family members that are still there. So it's really moving to hear that you've experienced that firsthand. So is that something you'd talk about much in work, particularly given your role?

Ama: I have now. When I was younger, it was quite traumatic and obviously when you're young, you want to fit in. And so all that business of trying to seek British citizenship and the stress of it and my parents and all the agony that they were going through. Because as a child, you adapt very quickly but as an adult, you've really left your friends and family. Especially for my dad as well, because he was a career diplomat so he really was part of the administration. That was what he wanted to do all his life. So there was a lot of trauma, lots of difficulties. So I almost tried to repress and forget it. And it's only now that as an adult and I'm more comfortable with things that I do talk about it because like you say, it is so prevalent, it's happening all the time and you do hear people saying, oh, well, you know, we can't take them all and all that commentary. And that's when I have to say, look, you know, it's not a black and white story of they want to come over here and take your resources, really, there's a story behind that. And like I say, humility, empathy and sympathy is really what's needed.

Helen: I can imagine that's very powerful when you do share your own personal experience and help people realize that there are real human beings behind the numbers, there are families, there are individuals with hopes and dreams and, and strong family ties who are having to unwillingly think about their new identity and their new home, and just must help people start to get just an inkling of an idea about the enormity of what's involved for someone in that situation.

Ama: Absolutely and also it's quite interesting because I've got quite an English accent, it throws people and then they say, oh, well, I wouldn't have thought of that. And I said, well, exactly. People have backstories. So it's always important not to assume or make assumptions and listen, and really think about how difficult things can be in certain situations.

Helen: Yeah, you're so right. We bring so many mental assumptions to every conversation don't we? And we don't always take time to realize that or to check them and unpack them. I'm sure that's a big part of the work you help lead in your organization about all the mental models and unchecked assumptions that we're bringing into conversations and interactions.  So how did you get into your leadership role that you are in now? How did you develop those leadership skills and what was the path like for you?

Ama: The actual getting the role was definitely through sponsorship. Somebody very senior. I got the pat on the back or the pat on the shoulder, as they say. So that was instrumental, but I'd done the work before then. As a lawyer and as a black female lawyer in a corporate space and a finance space I was often 'othered' because I was often the only woman in the room, but always the only black woman in the room. So I was very aware of being a minority. So I was very engaged in initiatives at work in terms of diversity, in terms of inclusion, in terms of just giving people a voice. And actually that's one of the reasons why I became a lawyer, because of my childhood, I felt that somebody had to speak for people who couldn't speak for themselves. And law seemed the right avenue for me to be able to do so. So I'd always done that and through that sort of advocacy, through that sort of speaking up, through that engagement, the senior leader said "I think you'd be very good at this". And it struck me that actually, yeah, I've got the lived experience and I've got the passion and I hope I have the understanding. And so it seemed a natural progression for me.

Helen: That's really interesting to hear how the act of putting your hand up and getting involved and speaking out and getting engaged on certain topics in the workplace - that raised your profile and helped people to notice you more and see the potential and also the commitment and the ambition you had as well. So it's a great reminder to us that if we want to succeed or climb up the career ladder, we have to be thinking about, okay, what more could I be doing or doing differently that might bring me into contact with different people who might be able to help me in my career or who might notice what I'm doing and what I bring to the table

Ama: I couldn't agree more. I did it inadvertently because I felt that I needed to do it, it was important to me. But looking back, I realize how much exposure it gave because I was active in the networks and because I put my hand up for things and because I spoke about things, it did mean that people did see me and people remembered me.

And like I say being a black female in a very white corporate space, you're often remembered! So it was important for me that I was remembered for the right reasons, but I hadn't strategically worked out that that would lead to something else. So I, yeah, I completely agree with you. It's difficult because you're busy doing your day job and sometimes juggling the family as well. But I do think that it is important to be noticed, to engage and not because you're doing it because you're thinking about the next thing, but find something that works for you, find something that you're interested in. Somebody was saying, what are you known for? What do you stand for? And I remember thinking, gosh, that's quite daunting. And then I realized, well, actually, if you do believe in something and if you're engaged in something, that is who you are. So I would really encourage people to do that, especially women because I think men do that naturally anyway; they're very good at selling themselves, their stories, their skills and women tend not to want to do that, it's often seen as bragging. And there is a fine line. But I do think you really do have to make sure that you are seen because if you aren't seen then people aren't going to talk about you when you're not in the room and often you want to be talked about for the right reasons.

Helen: That's great advice and particularly the 'what do you want to be known for?' I remember a colleague, a peer of mine asking me the same question a few years into our career. We worked a lot together. She said to me, you're very capable and you can do all these different things and you have great technical expertise. But if I have a question, the one thing I'm not quite clear on yet is what's your personal brand about at work? What do you want to be known for? And it really made me think hard that question, it was a really helpful intervention and it was done from a very encouraging, supportive place.

Ama: And it's a daunting one, the idea of having a brand, because you think, well, what does that look like in a corporate space? So, no, I completely understand what you're saying, but again, once you think about it, you think, well, actually this is what I stand for, this is what I think. So that's my brand, I just need to find a way to market it so that it really is about what I'm giving as opposed to what I'm trying to take or what I'm trying to be seen to be doing.

Helen: Absolutely and it links very strongly to our sense of purpose in life and the things we really value and care about. So as you stepped into increasingly senior roles, is there something in particular that you found difficult or stretching as a leader that has led you to acquire new skills or tools in your toolbox?

Ama: Definitely! Leadership is about people (laughs) and I don't think enough people say that. As a lawyer, you're very focused on getting the transaction done. You have a goal, everybody's working towards that goal and you all sort of get along and, you know, there might be differences in opinion, but there's one focus. But in leadership you're managing teams, you're managing different perspectives. You're managing so many stakeholders and unless you learn to connect, communicate, and work with them, it's really difficult. And I think that's the thing that I found very challenging, the fact that it really is about the relationship and the people first and almost the work second, because if you get the first right, the second flows automatically and goes very well. But you really have to put a lot of time and effort into the first piece. And I don't think people talk about people enough, about the fact that it really is about people and it's about making sure you connect with them and it's about making sure that they share your vision or understand what you're trying to achieve. And even if they don't agree but they can see your perspective and more importantly, you can see theirs. So it's, it's big, it's a big topic and I can see why it's easily got wrong. Because your focus may be getting the work done and you may not necessarily want to focus on the sensitivities or the different viewpoints of other people, whereas really that's what you should be looking at. So yeah, like I say, it's big (laughs again).

Helen: Yes it is and you're so right about the interpersonal relationships take priority. Someone very wise once said to me all the transactional task-based stuff that we do in our work and delivering to clients and contracting with clients, et cetera, all of that runs so much more smoothly if you're investing in the relationship at the same time and thinking about both of those angles very explicitly. But the minute you stop investing in the relationship, that's when it becomes far harder to manage the transactional side. And I thought that was a great way of putting it. It's these two tracks in parallel and you almost don't notice if you've got the good relationship that it is smoothing the way for the transactional activity to happen efficiently.

Ama: Exactly, and I think that's the thing: when it goes wrong, that's when you notice how difficult things can be. And if you focus on the relationship and the connection, you'll find that often you'll have an idea. And people will run with it because you've invested time in them; you've empowered them. And that's the piece that really takes time, empowering people, encouraging them and giving them the confidence. And like you say, once you've done that the transactional bit and the repetitive stuff, it just flows really, really well because people are almost second guessing and they're willing to go the mile, but you really do have to invest in that. And I just don't think that's emphasized enough when people talk about leadership.

Helen: Yes. So speaking about time and how you spend your time, how do you manage that whole dynamic in your role when you're leading a big agenda on behalf of organization; you've no doubt got huge amounts of work to get done in parallel, but you're also thinking as a leader about how you're role modelling certain behaviours or inclusive ways of working? What helps you manage your time at work and how do you divide your time up at work?

Ama: I think the pandemic has been good and bad. In terms of managing time, I always worked backwards. So for example, I'm currently doing the gender pay gap reporting at work and I know the deadline is 1st of April, so I've already diarized my milestones, what I have to achieve by such and such. So I always work backwards. So I know I'm doing something at the end of May. So I'm working backwards now and I kind of pinpoint milestones that I need to achieve, and I give myself a few days for slippage. I also allow for the fact that you will invariably get that email on the Monday, that will take precedence over everything else. But I think once you prioritize and give yourself milestones that helps.

With the people thing, I think COVID has been bad in the sense that it's very hard to connect to people on Zoom because small talk really does feel like small talk when it's involved over a computer because there's no natural flow.  I took on the role in COVID and even though I'd been at the organization a long time, I hadn't been in this role before so I was meeting new stakeholders who I hadn't dealt with before. So COVID has made that problematic, but the good thing about COVID is that it's meant that you've had to connect with lots of people very, very quickly. So, whereas, the office thing would have been, let's have a meeting and then go and speak to somebody else. Now I need to work out what this is, who in HR do I need to speak to? And often they'll refer you to somebody else. So you tend to connect to people very, very quickly because it's virtual and that allows that. And now that we're going back to the office, it's quite nice. I was in the office yesterday and people that I've spoken to for almost two years virtually, you know them well because you've worked with them. So now it's just a question of, oh, by the way, where do you live? Do you have children? And all of that stuff, because you've already established their work pattern and what you know they can do and the services and the way you work with them. So like I say, there's been bad things about it but there's been good things as well. It's just a different evolution of how a normal working relationship would be. You build the connection and then work, but in a sense, you've had to do the work and now you're building the connection.

Helen: Yeah, that's so interesting and I think you're spot on in terms of what people are really valuing now we're heading back into offices much more, which is the chance to really build those personal connections more easily and in person , having been on Zoom and on Teams for so long. So I think people are really enjoying that sense that a bit of humanity and interpersonal joy and laughter is coming back into day-to-day work interactions, 'cause that stuff's quite hard to replicate online.

Ama: Absolutely. And people are very grateful to be with each other. And before COVID, time for going to the office could be a little bit, oh gosh, again? And I think now people say, oh, actually, I'm going to have lunch with somebody/ I'm going to have a chat/ I'm going to speak to somebody. So that enthusiasm is nice.

Helen: I know it's so true. And do you know what, I have a 10 year old daughter who has always loved her school, but occasionally would grumble about, oh, do I really have to go in? I have not heard a peep about that ever since she finished the last lockdown, she's never once complained. I've never seen somebody shoot into school more enthusiastically every single day. Now she knows what the alternative is!

Ama: Exactly. I've got a 13 year old and after the first lockdown, we were both climbing up the walls. And so again, he's very grateful. School is very much a place of (laughs) escape because it's better than being at home with mum. Yeah.

Helen: We're all kind of cherishing that long- forgotten aspect aren't we? We have another space to go to, another set of people to hang out with, and it's not more of the same that we've been used to for days on end.

Ama: It's understanding the whole purpose of school or offices and the whole idea that it does get you out of the house. It does get you meeting people. It does vary the things that you do. So I think, lessons learned and appreciated.

Helen: Exactly. And I know for many people, they may love the place where they work, have really positive interactions with colleagues, feel that they're well supported and progressing happily in their careers and for others it might be a different story, for whatever reason. They find those interactions more problematic or challenging, or they don't feel as acknowledged or valued or included for some reason, or it just feels quite an unsustainable workload or pace of work. Could you tell me about any initiative or change or ambition that you've been involved in or you're leading perhaps in your current role to help make your organization a place where more people can flourish and feel valued and able to really deliver their best in their day-to-day work?

Ama: Yeah, actually, in terms of people who, like you say, going back to work may not necessarily be, it may present challenges to them, I think the whole hybrid model which in an investment bank can't be adapted for all roles because if you're a trader you really do need to be on the floor. But other roles, I think that whole hybrid way of working is working very well for employees. And it gives you that benefit of I've got time at home to be more efficient, to be honest. And then I've got time in the office to connect.

But one of the things that I ran last year and I'm starting the process this year is a programme called Rise. And it's a career development programme for women who are mid to senior. And it's that sort of stage where women tend to leave the workforce because they've probably started having families and the children are at a stage now where they've got exams or they're preparing for entrance in schools. And so it's that tipping point where they tend to leave. And that is the difficulty for us, because then you have this bulge of women who are graduates and that whole 50/50 balance, because that's the stage where they are very engaged. And then you have the few women at the top. And because there's nobody in between, you tend not to be able to progress the women in the middle to be senior, and then you have that challenge with seniority. And so we're really focusing on this middle group and we've run this programme and it's very much focused on women and it's very much based on analyzing their strengths and their challenges. It's getting feedback from all their stakeholders. We provide them with group coaching and also we provide them with mentoring. And it's really a game changer because women are often in environments where they feel that they can't really discuss their challenges between their careers and their professions.

And by putting a group of women together, it's a psychological safe space. They're very enthused; they're very encouraged and they just feel supported and not alone. Lots of commentary last year was 'I actually thought I was the only one who was struggling and not wanting to really put up my hand up for things because I had to pick up my daughter from school' and somebody else saying 'well, no, that's me too'. Or somebody saying 'well, actually I am thinking of leaving because I don't know how I really juggle this and I'm too scared to speak to my manager'. And I think that's been a real game changer. So I think those initiatives, and of course we've had men say 'well, how does that work? We need one too'. And we've sort of said, well, actually, if you look at the statistics, there's a very disproportionate amount of senior men to women. And I'm not saying that men don't need help, but at the moment, we need to focus on the underrepresented and unfortunately it's women. Last year, just giving you some broad stats, we had 32 women and of those we've already had six promotions and four of them have changed roles. And they have actually said the group coaching and the honesty, and the fact that it was a shared space and people thought and felt like me and also encouraged me and said 'look, do it, do this' has made a difference. So I do think those programmes, if they're delivered correctly and if they really address the issues, I think they can really help.

Helen: That's really interesting. It sounds like you've done brilliantly to create a space where people can really connect, be open with each other about some of the challenges, but also trust each other to say, 'this is what I do; this is what I struggle with; this is what I found helpful' and really building that sense of a cohort of people. And I was going to ask about how, and whether you involve men in those conversations or in that initiative in any way and you've just spoken a little bit about that. And I understand what you're saying, actually, we just have to look at where the real priorities are and focus efforts on that. We'd love to do things for everybody whatever their circumstance or gender or demographic, but there's a limited amount of resource and budget and you have to take it step by step and try and make improvements in one area and then build on that.

Ama: I must say that's the hardest part of my role, is that there's limited resources and everybody has needs. And you do have to be quite strategic and say, well, these are the key problem areas, and this is what we'll identify. It doesn't mean that I can't necesssarily focus on you for now but this is what it looks like for today, for the immediate future. And you're right, it doesn't please everybody, but that's leadership, that's the working world. There's limited resources so you really do have to decide strategically where you can make the most impact and where you can make the most difference.

Helen: Yeah, absolutely. Somebody once told me early in my career that you don't have a strategy until you know what it is you're not doing. And it's such good advice to really focus. And can I ask what resources have you found particularly helpful in your current role? Whether that's a book or a podcast or a talk or something else. What's helped inspire you or given you some extra tools to use?

Ama: I've been doing a lot of reading because even though I've lived this experience, it's finding the words. And I think that's really crucial because for example the concept of intersectionality: I had lived that all my life but I didn't know what it was. I had a situation once where I wasn't being treated very well and I was told oh well, it's because you're a woman and I knew there was a race angle to it, but I didn't know. ...I couldn't, I didn't.... Was it racism? Is it sexism? Which one is it? And I kept thinking, well, when I enter a room, I can't separate and be a woman and be black separately right? I'm both! And I just didn't have the language for it. And as soon as I read about intersectionality I just thought, oh my God, that's what it is! That makes so much sense. So I think for me, language and reading around the subject and understanding what people's thoughts are really helps.

And I mentioned that I really enjoy podcasts and one of my favourite ones is by Brenee Brown. She's very good at putting language to emotions and I remember somebody said, well, she's the 'shame guru'. And I thought, well, shame is just shame right? Like How can you be an academic about shame? Oh my gosh, how wrong was I? So for me, it's all about language. And so anybody who can add that language, who can build on the thoughts of that, I'm very engaged with.

I read James Clear's Atomic Habits, and I always found that I didn't have time to do quite a few things, and one of them was reading. And then he said, instead of reading 30 books a day, why don't you say read a page a day and that's what I've done. And now it's just gone to the stage where I'm reading about 45 minutes a day, just because I literally started with that one page. So I do think that when I was growing up, they were called self-help books and it was seen as a bad thing. I always have pictures of Bridget Jones and that whole... the fact that she read all the self-help books but couldn't help herself, but I really do think that as you evolve and you grow, you do need ideas, you do need people's thoughts. Because they can put your thoughts in perspective and they can find you the language and the understanding. And just some things that you're struggling with, someone will put it in a context and you'll think (clicks fingers) 'THAT'S what it is.' So I'm a real advocate of podcasts, lots of reading.

Helen: Yes, they're great resources, thank you for sharing those. I haven't read Atomic Habits yet, it is on my reading list, but I have read The Power of Habit by Charles Duhigg, who talks about how to create and stick to habits and that's a really good read as well, but thanks for reminding me about Atomic Habits. I 'll pop all the links to those and to Brenee Brown's podcast in the show notes. And how can listeners connect with you after the podcast, if they'd like to get in touch professionally?

Ama: LinkedIn, I'm on LinkedIn, so yes, please do. I'd love to hear what your podcasts, what your preferences are, your thoughts on leadership... I just think it's such a broad subject and people have experiences about it in different ways, and I just find it fascinating.

Helen: Great. So there's a real invitation to get connected and continue the conversation. Ama thank you so much for joining me today on The Business of Being Brilliant. It's been brilliant to have you here and hear all about your career and your reflections on our world of work and what it takes to be a leader today. Thank you so much for joining us!

Ama: Oh, thank you so much for having me. This is what I love about podcasts is that it's a real conversation and I've really enjoyed it, Helen. Thank you.