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Transcript:

Hello! And welcome to episode 8 of series 5 of the Business of Being Brilliant, which I’m recording on Thursday 22^nd June. I’ve got the doors to the garden flung open and I’m listening to the bees buzzing among the clover, the cooing of the woodpigeons and our next door neighbour’s horses banging their feed buckets noisily. Life in the country hey?! How about you? Are you still enjoying the midsummer sunshine or has the novelty worn off already? I am bored of watering my vegetable garden every night and chasing rabbits out of the lettuces, although I keep reminding myself sternly that it’s a restorative mindful activity and far better for me than Netflix. I’m adopting the ‘pick and mix’ approach of harvesting a little of everything all at once - a quick way to hit my 5 a day! I hope you find something in this week’s episode to whet your appetite and help you make progress on a knotty issue at work.

In series 5 we’ve discussed how to manage the hidden aspects of organisational life, enhance productivity and engagement with meeting-free days, increase social mobility, remove career barriers for senior women and men, bring in the exec talent you want, craft a career you love and last but by no means least, solve the many challenges of working parenthood. And in this series wrap-up episode, I’m bringing you nuggets of wisdom from all my guests  - think of it as a carefully selected ‘pick and mix’ of insights and advice to brighten your day and inspire your work.

Before we dive in and hear from my guests, here’s a quick update from me on what I’m hearing and seeing in our world of work, and some opportunities coming up that you or a colleague might be interested in. Are you or your team feeling energised and smashing your goals? Or clinging on by your fingernails until your summer break arrives? I’m somewhere in the middle: I’m starting to fixate a bit on our annual trip to Cornwall, via the sleeper train from London and ready for a refresh. I’m hearing many clients say people have really been putting the hours in this year and are feeling very depleted, yet that Herculean effort isn’t always translating into the business results they’re shooting for. The HR and business leaders I meet tell me their #1 challenge is how to improve productivity without damaging employee wellbeing or their supportive culture.
 
A summer holiday, whilst welcome, isn't a magic wand. But immediately after the summer break is a great time to engage people in a conversation about how to work smarter, collaborate better and stay healthy. Think about what an hour of your team’s time actually costs (cost to hire, gross salary, benefits, office space etc) and how big the rewards could be from investing your working time more wisely. It’s a no-brainer. My Time intelligent Teams programme helps teams to achieve more whilst encouraging healthy work habits and respecting individual needs. If you want to help your team shift their performance up a gear in the second half of the year (and beyond) get in touch now for further details and a free exploratory conversation.

 
If your work diary isn’t rammed to the hilt this week and you’ve got a free window on Thursday 29^th June at 12pm BST, then do join me at my free 30 minute webinar on Fewer, better meetings. I’ll explain how to achieve a slimmed down, effective meeting culture that leaves people feeling valued and energised instead of unnoticed or drained. It could transform your autumn work diary. The link to book is in the show notes; the session isn’t recorded so do join live, I’ll see you there.
 
A bit of perspective over the summer break often reminds people that they need better flexibility in their work lives, and by better, I mean more tailored to their individual needs. It's a win-win as personalising flexibility helps employers to retain and progress women, and men, up to executive levels. If you’re in a senior HR or business leadership role, I’d love your help with a diagnostic that I have co-developed with Joy Burnford to quickly identify creative, cost-effective ways of personalising flexibility in your organisation. After a half hour call with us you’ll receive your diagnostic results and 3 bespoke recommendations for enhancing flexibility. 
 

To get in touch about any of the things I’ve just mentioned, email me at hello@helenbeedham.com or click the link in the show notes and I’ll respond within 24 hours.

Right, let’s hear from our guests now and, mindful that the summer break is approaching and it’s a time when we typically step back and reflect on how work and life are going, the following conversations all offer something to mull on while you’re thinking your big thoughts. 

First let’s hear from Kevin Hogarth, who has over 30 years of executive HR experience across healthcare, financial services, and professional services, culminating in the role of  UK Chief People Officer at KPMG.  He also has over 10 years non executive experience through his work with the national charity Scope, Nottingham Trent University, and two multi academy trusts. Kevin now runs his own advisory and consulting business, and we got talking about how to keep an eye on what’s coming next, and in particuar how to prepare early for the later stage of your career.

Helen: I'm going to guess you're going to say there are things people can start to do quite early in their careers to position them to make some of those options more likely?

Kevin: You're spot on Helen, I think that's absolutely right. My experience of working with professionals as they come towards the end of their first career, because many of us of course now through our hundred year life, are going to have, you know, two or three ...

Helen: ten!

Kevin: ...careers you know, or however many, that's right.  And I think that's right. I think busy professionals tend to leave it too late. And I understand that, they're very committed to their professional careers, particularly when I'm talking about law firm partners and big four partners, they've got demanding clients that want their time and attention, want things turned around very quickly.

They probably also got family commitments, young family. I did when I was in my early forties and starting, so there's lots of competition for your time. But certainly if you leave it too late then particularly finding paid non executive work is really quite hard if you haven't got any board experience. And I think one of the ways around that is to start to get experience in the third sector, unpaid work arts organisations, charities in education as I've been. There's no shortage of organisations that are looking for people to come and help them on a voluntary basis.

And I do think actually it's very important that we do get younger people on boards. It's not an uncommon experience to be sat around a board that has actually quite good diversity in terms of gender and ethnicity, et cetera, but we're all the same age. We're all in our fifties and we have a particular viewpoint of our generation, and it would be great to have some people in their forties or even in their thirties who are adding different perspectives to the discussions that we're having around the board table.

So I would absolutely encourage people at a really relatively early stage of their careers. There are opportunities for them and I'd encourage them to explore them and and take them.

Helen: Yeah. So even if it's just an interest in their home lives, you know, helping to run a, I don't know, local rugby club or whatever, you know, all of those management governance related opportunities are going to be relevant at some point.

Kevin: And it's a way of perhaps following a passion. You may have a passion around the arts but that's something which you no longer have very much time for in your life. You may have played in an orchestra when you were younger, or maybe you were involved in the theatre when you were younger and that's just got squeezed out of your life now because of all the other competing demands. You can combine that passion for the arts by sitting on the board of an arts organization and it's tremendously fulfilling and stimulating.

Helen: Yes. And I love this idea, linked to what you were saying about we have different careers over our much longer working lives, there might be something that is more of a hobby for us now in the current chapter of our careers or our lives, but because we care a lot about it, we do stick at it. But actually that might .Become much more central to our working lives in a later career stage So it's nice to almost look ahead see almost like different lanes on a ,motorway and think okay I'm motoring down this lane, but I might switch into that lane later on.

Kevin got me thinking about things I used to really enjoy doing earlier in my life, that I’ve somehow left behind, without ever really deciding to do that. Why not have a think over the summer about former passions that you’ve let slide because work or home life have taken centre stage. What would you want to pick up again? What are you missing that could become significant again to you, in a new way?

My guest Beth Stallwood is a coach, facilitator, speaker, consultant and author, and the founder of Create WorkJoy, a resource hub and professional community focused on cultivating more joy in our working lives. Beth specialises in helping individuals who find themselves stuck in work gloom to craft a more enriching working life. If there’s something niggling away at you about your current role or organisation, and particularly if you’ve got a voice in your head telling you it’s time to move on, this advice from Beth will help you tune into that irritation or frustration and respond to it in a constructive way

Beth: when people are joyful, they're more productive, they're more engaged, they're more interested, they're more creative. When you're in a space of work gloom, and I think many people will relate to this, when you feel a little bit, I haven't thought of a better word, but a bit meh about work...

Helen: It is such a great word. It's so expressive.

Beth: It doesn't really mean anything but it's like meh! We know what it means. If you're listening to this, you have probably at some point in your life, experienced a bit of meh at work. You've probably also experienced that Sunday night pit of the stomach dread about going to work if you start your working week on a Monday. You've probably also had the want to throw your laptop out a window, you've probably also wanted to not ever have to work with that particular person or that particular team. Again, these are all what I'd call moments of things that bring us work gloom, and it's called gloom. At first it was called something slightly more unpublishable and slightly more not appropriate for a podcast, but it's like, no, it needs to be more publishable than this.

It can range from minor irritation, where you just feel a bit grrr about stuff to that proper sense of I am not valued here, I am not welcome here, I don't feel a sense of belonging here, to actually feeling like psychologically unsafe would also be a a, a factor of work gloom.

And what happens often is we start with minor irritations; we don't deal with them. We don't learn ways to counteract them or to balance them or to manage them, and they grow and grow and grow and grow until we're in a situation where we either want to do something that would be career ending. You know how if I said what I think in my head, this will be a career ending moment for me, or where we do the thing where we just like, I have to escape, so I'm just going to find the next job I possibly can.

I'm not going to do any due diligence and I'm just going to get out of here. And then we go to the next job, haven't done our due diligence, and we're like, oh, hang on a minute. These problems are still the same because this is real organizational life and actually what we need to do is learn as individuals how to deal with some of those challenges so that we can have less work gloom less often, more work joy more often and more importantly, I think is other than just the 'do I have more of it? Do I have less of it?' Is when you get the moments of work gloom, how quickly you can get yourself out of it, how quickly you can, put in place the good stuff that either replaces or balances out the bad stuff.

Because we all have negativity bias in our mind, it's a neuro scientifically proven thing, we have it. We are more likely to see one item of work gloom in a day and ruminate on it and talk about it and get annoyed about it than if we had 10 moments of work joy. So we have to start noticing where our joy come from. We have to understand that our work gloom may actually be put in better proportion if we were more aware of some of the joyful things.

And the most important thing, and I always talk about this, this is an active pursuit. It is not a passive one. It's not just about what comes at you and what you deal with in a day, it's what do you do about it? So people are often like, my boss is bad at this, or my organization doesn't do this and I don't like this.

I say okay. Some of those things you can't change. So focus on the stuff that you can, the things that you can control, and there are so many things that you can do and you may still end up going, do you know what, this organization I've worked out is not right for me, and I know it because our values don't match. I know it because it's not got the right sense of purpose for me. I know it because I'm no longer learning or growing, and I've actually just outgrown my particular role. But I'm going to my next organization knowing what I need so I can be a better investigator or in a recruitment process, is this going to be the right job for me? And I allow myself a career that is joyful in as many ways as it can be.

Such great advice from Beth, I hope it has helped you get a fresh perspective on any career dilemmas that are brewing for you right not. 

Making active choices and responding constructively to conflict or frustrations is something my guest Yael Schonbrun also talked about. Yael is a clinical psychologist specializing in treating relationships; she’s also cohost of the fantastic Psychologists Off the Clock podcast; assistant professor at Brown University in the US and a parent of three young boys. And in her first book Work Parent Thrive: 12 Science-backed Strategies To Ditch Guilt, Manage Overwhelm, and Grow Connection (When Everything Feels Like Too Much), Yael offers a toolkit to help even the most stressed of working parents grow the good while better managing inevitable challenges. Yael talked to me about her own experiences of work and home life clashing when she first became a working parent and how she discovered a better way to approach work family conflict. If you’re heading towards the school summer break and wondering how to stay sane whilst juggling your work and children, Yael has the answer.

Yael: When I became a working parent, I was prepared to have it be hard, but really thought that I would also be quite effective because I had a job that I loved, I had a supportive partnership, I had a healthy pregnancy. I was very excited to become a parent. I really enjoyed my work and so it was quite a surprise to me that I was pretty miserable that first year. When I would be with my kids I would feel like ashamed because I thought my clinical, my professional colleagues were Being much more productive, lapping me.

And when I was at work, I would feel really ashamed that I had passed my child off to virtual strangers and that I wasn't going to be there for all of the firsts and the small moments. And it really, I found myself crying on the way to and from work every day and really miserable at night.

And so I started thinking about this concept of the way that my roles related. So again thinking about this from a relational perspective and I realized that there's not much in the literature that talks about the relationship between work and parenthood, at least not from a psychological perspective.

And so I started diving into the academic literature and of course, there is a lot that has been looked at in terms of how the two roles conflict but the other part of how I'm trained and how I like to think about things is through the lens of positive psychology, through happiness science, and I was really excited to discover this concept that's called 'work family enrichment'.

That is really the heart of my book. And what that basically means is that, there is a relationship between our two roles that is a positive one, that they can feed each other, and that doesn't mean that the conflictual relationship doesn't exist. In fact, that is also true. They're both true. They kind of exist side by side, but by recognizing how our roles can help each other out, how they can have this positive relationship, we can actually take advantage of that more and using tools from social science, we can do that really strategically.

And that really does harken back to the way that I think about relationships between partners. That conflict itself isn't bad, it's how you respond to the conflict, and it's really learning how to amplify the positive connection, the enjoyment of one another, the ways that your differences can counterbalance one another that makes for healthy, long-term, sustainable, happy, satisfying relationships. And we can approach the relationship between our roles in the same way.

I have been putting much of Yael’s fantastic advice into practice, and it is really helping me to see things differently and appreciate the upsides even in situations where I’d have previously have blown a gasket!

My next guest spoke so thoughtfully about the relationship between employer and employee and how that has been changing. Dr Adjit Menon is the Head of People & Organisation at Investec plc. He has over 20 years of experience working in the areas of culture, organisation development, change and HR, and he is also the co-author of What Lies Beneath: How organisations Really Work.  I asked Ajit about what he’s seeing as he has been leading their people agenda through a challenging time including a recession, the war with Ukraine, global supply shortages, high inflation, high cost of living and post-Covid labour market challenges.

Ajit: I think the context of work has changed tremendously. I mean COVID came and changed it for us in a way in which we couldn't imagine. It's so funny, I feel like I'm full of quotes today. I had this thought that popped into my head, which is Mike Tyson, who says 'everybody has a plan until I punch them in the face'.

And I think that's what COVID did to us, right? We all had plans, various different things and the world just completely changed. Coming out of it on the other side, I mean, I don't know whether this is particular only to financial services, but I think that the workforce in general, the psychological contract with organisations has changed, has moved and shifted.

And what I'm noticing quite a lot in people that we're recruiting, especially, the different generations that we're recruiting in, there has been a shift; a shift from purely money to meaning and people are looking for more meaning in terms of their lives and therefore in terms of the work that they get involved with. You can see the kinds of requests people have in terms of how they want to structure their working lives.

 We've had a different taste of things through a period when everything came to a stop and turned around for us during COVID. And so now I think that the workforce is looking for more meaning, more purpose in the work that they do. We see a lot more conversations at interviews where people are asking us about our purpose, our values. How do we actually think about the context that we live in? And I think this is really an important part of organisational life.

Now, I'm very proud to work for an organisation that is very, very purpose driven. And even though we're a financial services organisation, we talk a lot about our purpose, which is to create enduring worth. And it's very interesting to talk about worth, not wealth. So it's creating enduring worth, living in society and not off it which is a very different way of looking at financial services and what can we do. And we bring a lot of meaning into the work that we do, because it's not just about CSR, it's not just about charity and that work. From a financial services perspective, we are looking deeply at how we exist in the context of the world around us. So what does that mean? What are the vendors we use? What are the partners we're working with? What are the funds that we invest in? What franchises that we back? That's all completely part of this strategy of what we do. And then this idea of ESG is very much entwined in that.

Which for people who are coming to look for work with us, they find it quite attractive because again, as I say, there's more of a move to meaning than just purely looking at money. And I think that's something that I am noticing in the industry quite a lot of that's going on.

So if you’re thinking about your own work life over the summer, Ajit’s words might invite you to think about the meaning you get from working where you work, or doing what you do. If you lead a team, or a business or work in HR, what are you seeing people ask about? Or ask for? What’s most important to them and how are you responding to that?

Ajit mentioned the recruitment process, and this is something that my next guest Deborah Gray knows more than anyone about. Debbie is one of the 3 founding directors of Totum, who recruit senior professionals, including C-suite executives and non executive directors into leadership roles in business services functions at professional service firms. I asked her about what works well in the recruitment process and what works less well.

Debbie: So this is my hobby horse because it absolutely, it, it frustrates me so much that the sectors we work in people are the biggest asset these organizations can have. They're people businesses.

And you just think, well, why, why don't organizations prioritize their recruitment process more? And I think some do. I think some are getting better, and there are some who still don't. And it frustrates me that sometimes some very junior people are put in charge of recruitment when they're making decisions about people that are much more senior than them, or perhaps they don't understand the roles. That just doesn't seem right. I think that a recruitment process is a way that an individual sees into that firm. It's their one lens that they can see into an organization. It's the only lens they have, initially, and that for me is how an organization should sell itself.

And there's still the old style recruitment where recruitment is viewed as ' we must test these people', 'we need to challenge these people'. And yes of course you do, but you also need to sell your business to these people because unless a candidate engages with an organization, they're not going to join it. And they have to feel that they're wanted and valued in that process. So if, as you just said, the process is very long and drawn out, or they don't get any feedback, then why are they going to want to join that organization? I wouldn't, and I've not been through a recruitment process for a long, long time either, for 25 years, but it just seems so obvious to me and us, at Totum that if you're wanting to get good people, then you need to have a really good, slick recruitment process, where you get critical feedback, useful feedback, where you're meeting a diverse set of people in that organization, where the culture and the brand of that organization is coming through to you so that you understand the business that you might be joining or want to join, where if you're made an offer, a manager or a managing partner is in touch with you to say how excited they are that you're going to be joining them. And in that way you get people to join your business. And we've got so many examples of big firms losing out to some amazing talent because they've gone to a smaller firm where they felt more valued and felt like they wanted to join it because they aligned with their culture.

And it's been shocking to some of them. And, and some of them go, is it about money? And it's like, no, actually they're getting significantly less somewhere else, but they felt valued and they felt wanted and they felt like it was somewhere that they wanted to align themselves with.

So it is something that is still not right in so many organizations and it's something that I think is so easy to get right. So I'm afraid it is a bit of my hobby horse!

Helen: And very compelling said! I totally buy that.

So there you go, if you want people to be excited about joining your firm, take Debbie’s advice and make sure your recruitment process gives people a big reason to say yes.  And if you’re job hunting right now, think about the experience you’re having and what that’s saying to you about the organisations you’re speaking to.

What about once you’re in the door? Organisations are doing a lot to build awareness around inclusive behaviours and to celebrate diversity in many different ways.  My guest Joy Burnford is an expert in gender equality, Forbes contributor and author of the bestselling book 'Don't Fix Women’.  She talked about the importance of not putting people into boxes, and our needs and ambitions all vary from individual to individual. Here’s how she puts it.

Helen: Of all the different conversations you have with clients and the research you do, what would you pick as one really innovative or effective thing for an organisation to trial or, or to focus on? I know that's asking you to pick a needle out of a haystack, but where would you recommend people focus their efforts?

Joy: So I speak a lot to organisations who are forward-thinking and want to change things. So in those instances, I think I'm very optimistic that they're thinking about the right things to be doing. They're thinking about things like allyship, how to engage more men in the conversation, make sure the majority are starting to change things because otherwise it's not going to happen. So I'm optimistic from that point of view.

 I think allyship would be the biggest thing really about how to engage men in this debate because we know that the world is still very much a man's world whether we like it or not, and I think we just need to, rather than telling men off, it's not man bashing here, it's about actually really understanding how it feels for them actually.

What does the gender equality debate mean to them? They are the other half of gender balance, it's not about women's equality, it's about gender equality and I think it's understanding each person. I think the golden thread that runs through my book is personalization, and thinking about every individual. So let's scrap men, women. Let's think about every individual. And a lot of companies are saying, we're doing so many different groups, so many networks, we've got ethnicity networks, we've got pride networks, we've got gender networks, and there's a lot of talk now about trying to bring those together.

And I think I, in a way, it's actually right. You should be thinking about each individual human being and actually what we each need to thrive and not put people in boxes. We're not all homogenous groups. Men often get lumped in a men bucket, in macho bucket, and that's not true. I think we think about things like carers rather than men and women, and we start to change the perspective on this.

So actually then in organisations, we start to change the message around what do we mean by carers or parents and not about men and women. And if we can start changing the workplaces that hopefully we'll then have a ripple out to then be able to educate our children and change things that way around. We just need to break it down and work out what we can do in our own teams, in our own organisations, in our own homes and then hopefully those messages will spread far and wide.

So by changing the labels we use, we can start to change conversations and from there, create better experiences for people in the workplace, and beyond.  Maybe in your team or organisation, there’s an opportunity to bring disparate efforts together and if you’re talking a lot about one topic or aspect of the workplace, you might benefit from flipping the conversation or asking the question differently.

My guest last week on the podcast was Vijay Pereira, Professor of International and Strategic Human Capital Management at NEOMA Business School in France and before the pandemic hit he asked a very big questio, to the leaders of over 75 multinational organisations. He asked them if they had any evidence that meetings, and the number of meetings they had, were as productive as they assumed? The general answer was ‘we don’t know’, which led to a year long study into the impact of introducing 1, 2, 3, 4 or 5 meeting free days on productivity, engagement and several other factors. Here’s Vijay talking about the key findings and why we need to allow more time to prepare for meetings instead of scheduling them back to back across 5 days of the week.

Helen: the key finding or the headline findings from your study was that people's productivity went up enormously with at least two meeting free days per week. And I think you said the optimum was three, is that right?

Vijay: Correct, correct.

Helen: So two days of meetings and three meeting free days. But what I found really interesting is that, in your research you explained that productivity went up because people felt relieved not to be micromanaged so much, relieved to have more autonomy in how to allocate their working time and also they felt interestingly, much more accountable for delivering.So that sat much more squarely on their shoulders, which actually then also made them feel they had greater satisfaction with their work. So it's not just about the efficiency side, it's very much about how people feel about delivering their work.

And in case anyone's wondering whether the benefits just keep accruing the more you cut meetings out of your collective work diaries, the answer is no, not really, isn't it? There is the law of diminishing returns and some aspects like autonomy keep going up, but other things like productivity actually start to decline again after three meeting-free days. Is that right?

Vijay: Yes, we call it the inverted U because there is an optimal level, and that's what we show in the paper. It's 3, because also then we have to go back to the basic question of why do we have meetings? So there is this element of control, of organizing, of planning, of strategizing, of accountability, very importantly. And I think human beings generally need to be independent, but also there is this element of '' hey am I too independent? You know? And there's a lot of evidence that say that control is important when it comes to work, some sort of control.

Otherwise it's too much of autonomy or too much of anything really isn't it? Too much of autonomy or too much of control as well, so that mid-level needs to be found. And in our study we found that really, it's the three days where you can be really productive, but then two days you have to be accountable for that productivity. You have to engage through meetings for future planning. So it's both accountability and future planning that are key to the two days.

Now also importantly, Helen, is that you are better prepared for the two-day meetings because people need time for meetings. The classic back-to-back meetings, what does it mean that you have no time to prepare? So it's already a waste of time because you're entering into meetings without being prepared physically and mentally for the meeting. So people have time to prepare and plan and do what they are supposed to do, deliver, produce. And so the two days are what we are suggesting to have the meetings because that would be also the most productive meeting time.

Helen: Yes, yes. I think you absolutely call out something that we all fail routinely to acknowledge that actually to have a good quality meeting, we need time to prepare. And I know from talking to people and from reading about other research as well, people just don't have that time. They are back to back.

Vijay makes such a powerful point that by leaving no free windows between meetings, we’re already wasting our time before we even start the next meeting. We’re not going to be bringing our attention and our best thinking into that conversation.In my own survey when I was researching for my business book, people consistently told me the one thing they wanted more time for was for thinking, to reflect on what they were doing and seeing and to plan better.  So if that’s the same for you, what changes might you ponder during your summer break to your own meeting schedule and the way you manage your time across the working week or month?

I want to thank all my guests for coming on the show and sharing their time and advice so generously. Do head back to listen to one or more of these episodes in full whilst you’re waiting for series 6 to air, there are so many other nuggets of wisdom there to enjoy.

Whilst I’m on my summer break, I’ll be reading Your Future Self by UCLA Professor Hal Hershfield; The Secret Sauce by former CEO of finnCap Group plc Sam Smith (launched this week) and a sneak preview of Revolting Women by Dr Lucy Ryan (out in Sept). I’m looking forward to podcasting with all of these authors in the autumn for series 6, plus some other HR and business leaders about the agendas they are leading in their organisation or industry.

If there’s a topic you’d love me to cover on the show, or someone you think would make a great guest, please do get in touch with your suggestions. And if you’re a business or HR leader yourself, why not come on the show and share what you’re doing and celebrate your successes with us? I’ll be happy to set up a short introductory call to explore this possibility.

We’ve come to the end of series 5. If something in particular caught your interest, don’t forget that all the links and show notes are at www.helenbeedham.com/podcast. If you’ve enjoyed listening, please do share the podcast with friends and on social media and leave a review wherever you listen to your podcasts, to help other listeners to discover it too. Series 6 kicks off in early September so join me then for more conversations about The Business of Being Brilliant.